How To Sleep Better with Sleep Expert Deepa Kannan

Dr. Jessica Drummond (00:00:03) – Hi and welcome to the Integrative Women’s Health Podcast. I’m your host, Doctor Jessica Drummond, and I am so thrilled to have you here as we dive into today’s episode. As always, innovating and integrating in the world of women’s health. And just as a reminder, the content in this podcast episode is no substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment from your medical or licensed health care team. While myself and many of my guests are licensed healthcare professionals, we are not your licensed healthcare professionals, so you want to get advice on your unique circumstances. Diagnostic recommendations treatment recommendations from your home medical team. Enjoy the episode. Let’s innovate and integrate together. Welcome back to the Integrative Women’s Health Podcast. I’m Doctor Jessica Drummond, your host. Today you’re going to meet Deepak Kanan. She’s the author of a brand new book on sleep. All of our patients need Sleep How to Sleep Better The miraculous ten step program for rejuvenating your Mind and Body. This book is fascinating. This conversation is even more fascinating because we get into the nitty gritty of why some really gentle, Ayurvedic sensual, and this book uses a framework around the senses.

Dr. Jessica Drummond (00:01:38) – Strategies that are simple, cost effective, can be done with yourself or your partner are really essential towards sleep medicine. And we’re going to get into a little bit of a debate about the right sleep position for our clients. All right. Meet me on the other side where we’ll talk about our key takeaways. And I want to hear from you. Enjoy this conversation. Hi, Deepa, and welcome to the Integrative Women’s Health Podcast. I’m so excited to have you here because I’ve really enjoyed the perspective of your book. We’re going to dive right into talking about sleep and optimizing sleep strategy. But first, I really want to hear your story. What inspired you to write a book about sleep and, you know, a sleep healing strategy, if you will. Have you ever had your own sleep issues where you inspired by one of your patients? What’s the back story?

Deepa Kannan (00:02:46) – Thanks, Jessica, and such a pleasure to be here, and I must share that you have played such a key role on this journey.

Deepa Kannan (00:02:54) – I don’t know if you remember, and I’ve been talking a lot about Jessica Drummond at other interviews, because it just so happened that when the day my husband showed me a peek into my astrological chart and he said that, you know, you should be an author and that’s what’s really good for you. And that very night, I saw your Facebook post where you had written about 50 more pages to go. And Jeremy, please keep me on track and I click to see who’s Jeremy. And then I joined our group of authors and that’s how the book happened. So whenever I’ve been doing book launches or interviews, I’ve been talking about Jessica Drummond and how that led to this book. So for sure you played a key role in it. And yes, absolutely. I’ve had severe challenges with sleep over several specific moments in life, and I used to be married before it was very challenging emotionally and that marriage was I think, the very first time my sleep challenges started to arise. However, in hindsight, back then, I don’t think I even knew about the nervous system, nervous system regulation, or dysregulation under stress, and it just seemed something of the norm that I never slept.

Deepa Kannan (00:04:19) – I’d be pretty much awake all night and fall asleep in the wee hours of the morning and get to work, barely getting by on a few hours of sleep for about 7 to 8 years. The second time I had sleep challenges was I got divorced and I married my present husband. We had a little boy, and then when my son was diagnosed with the adrenal disorder within a few weeks and the first year was just running into the emergency room all the time. And that was a time where, again, as you know, I mean, as any mother would know, it’s a challenging phase, all the more so that it was a condition where he could die under several situations. So you had to be on really high alert to prevent such a fatality. And so it spiraled into severe health challenges and sleep challenges. And I don’t know which contributed to the other, but the fact is that several years went by of terrible sleep. And this is in spite of me having been a yoga therapist for 25 years.

Deepa Kannan (00:05:32) – And, I mean, I don’t think people would tell me that, but you’re a yoga teacher and how can you have health challenges? And I think that’s such a narrow statement. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard something like that as a health practitioner, but we’re also human. We are also bombarded by stress, and I think in many ways when we have been through that route, we are better equipped to support a lot. People as well. Then being these so-called perfect entities where nothing comes our way. And so much later, when I got into functional medicine and started my practice, that was when I started to think about everybody is saying that sleep is really important to healing, but I mean, looking at sleep, it’s not as simple as saying, just switch off the lights because each of us have so many things that are preventing us from sleeping. So I said, we’re talking about bio individuality, but we need to take that into the aspect of sleep. And that’s the thinking that prompted the Journey of sleep as a book.

Deepa Kannan (00:06:42) – And again, coming back to when I saw your post and join the group. And then I think, what does do motivate each other? But that’s another story that when I was part of the authors group with you, Jessica, and the book was at first writing 200,000 words, and now finally it’s 90,000. So quite a bit was cut. And I just didn’t know that the first time around. I’m sure I wouldn’t make that mistake for future books. And I took a lot of effort to write so much and even more effort to cut it down afterwards. So I think it was probably something I didn’t need to do. But I think that even today, there are situations where I realize that rampant stress that has been a part of my life over several decades does again trigger sleep challenges. If I feel that lack of safety in some way or something comes my way into life where I feel a sense of threat and it’s very easy to spiral into lack of sleep. And I just felt that there was also something very key.

Deepa Kannan (00:07:58) – I felt that because I was part of this group of colleagues in both the functional world and the Ayurveda world. And, you know, I would see colleagues in our Veda saying that just ignore the labs. You know, if you have high cholesterol, just ignore it. And then sometimes in the functional world there are wonderful practitioners, but at times it can be unless it’s research backed. I mean, you can’t really recommend it, but there’s so many protocols from Ayurveda which are not quite research backed as yet. Things are definitely changing and that’s wonderful. So I was just trying to see instead of dividing east and west, why not create synergy and bring the two together so that we might offer somebody a large perspective of tools? So no matter where they’re coming from and no matter what is their thinking or their level of comfort, that we are offering them something with that.

Dr. Jessica Drummond (00:09:03) – Yeah. So there’s a lot to unpack there. Let’s take a pause for a minute and talk about, I think one of the things that’s so key that you emphasize here is that as a practitioner, so you were a yoga therapist for 25 years.

Dr. Jessica Drummond (00:09:19) – Then you began to explore the world of functional medicine. You have Ayurvedic medicine background. So you have a truly integrative East-West perspective, you know, in your clinical work and in your yoga work. And yet I would say most, not a few, I would say most clinical professionals, because mostly that’s who I work with, right? We do mostly clinical professional training and coaching, professional training, wellness training of practitioners. I have thousands of yoga therapists in our community, and functional medicine practitioners and Ayurvedic medicine practitioners who also are human and deal with the chronic stressors of challenging marriages, divorces, sick kids. And I think one of the most important things that you emphasize there is that when you are living during the day through a human challenge that incites or causes hypervigilance, you can’t just turn off the light and go to sleep. So what I really liked about your book is that it gives a step by step for looking at your senses, and I know you took a bit of liberty with the senses in terms of sense of detoxification and sense of some things, you know, movement that we might not normally call senses.

Dr. Jessica Drummond (00:10:46) – But I think we should, because what the nervous system is trying to do when you lay down to fall asleep is just feel safe enough. Assess everything, biochemistry, detox, emotional stress. And it has to feel safe enough to turn off, or at least really turn down that hypervigilance. So let’s talk about the structure of the book and why you and what are some of the recommendations you can give based on that sensory strategy.

Deepa Kannan (00:11:22) – And I think I must clarify, Jessica, that in the eastern texts of Yoga and Veda, there is the concept of the ten senses. So it’s not something that only I have taken. They divide the senses into two. So there’s the Nona Andreas, which is what we’re familiar with the sense of sight, sound, smell, touch and taste. But it also mentions Kama Andreas or the five senses of action. So they do list those five senses organs as the rectum, the genitals, the legs, the hands and the mouth for speech. So the rectum I have juxtaposed as detoxification, the genitals as the euro, reproductive hormonal system, locomotion, the legs.

Deepa Kannan (00:12:16) – So the concept that the legs allow us movement. So I have actually taken the concept from the eastern text. And the ten Andreas or the ten senses are mentioned in several texts. Probably where I have pushed them a little further, is that I’ve tried to bring in the scientific correlation of some systems, and used it as a framework to explain these various systems. So the ten senses are very much a part of eastern ancient wisdom. But I read the text, talk about taking care of the five senses, not the ten senses. And that’s where I pushed it a little further. And the reason also for this structure, Jessica, is that in good writing itself, anything that has a framework creates that memory. So I just wanted to leave readers with a way to recall the concepts. And I’ve already been accused by some people that the book is very heavy. And in fact, I was surprised to hear that because I really try to simplify concepts and make it more accessible to somebody who might not be in the field of health.

Deepa Kannan (00:13:33) – So it’s just a framework, and therefore I’ve taken it in a way that you can explain the science of those systems, but you also have so many of the protocols from ancient eastern wisdom which you can use to care for. One classic example is in the world of sleep. Now I know where you are in the world of functional medicine more. But in the world of sleep, sleep, physicians and sleep. Research. There’s not that much of emphasis on physiological reasons for sleep disruption, and always the gold standard for addressing sleep challenges is considered CBT or cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. And you’ll constantly see people in the world of CBT talking about how supplements don’t matter. And it’s all in your mind. You have to change the mindset. And somehow that doesn’t sit quite well with me because it’s hard for, you know, in eastern ancient wisdom, there’d be this statement that if you go even into the Himalayas with a chaotic body, you can steal your mind, meaning the same mind is going to be in the same chaotic body, whether you’re in the midst of stress or whether you’re sitting up in the Himalayas.

Deepa Kannan (00:14:57) – So somehow that has been such a part of me that it didn’t sit well with me, that how can you just change the mindset if the body is in chaos? So I really wanted to change that aspect of addressing sleep challenges in a way where no matter what is the challenge within somebody, they should feel a sense of empowerment, that they’ve got the tools to calm down that chaos, so to speak, and help their body to fall asleep. Because it’s not just about retraining your mind and as to disconnect and supplements don’t matter. And somehow that just didn’t sit well with me. For me, it’s all about whatever makes somebody improve their sleep. It’s fine. There’s no perfect way to do it for somebody. It might be that they really do well with a high quality nutrient. For somebody else, it might be just an oil massage. But we have a responsibility to provide tools from all over, from east and West, and give the reader a plethora of tools so that they can use whatever might be helpful to them.

Dr. Jessica Drummond (00:16:16) – Absolutely. So of course, from a functional and integrative medicine perspective, I absolutely agree that you have to have a sense of calm, healing, relaxation, nourishment to the body. You can’t really divide the head and the body in the same way that we think of that for mental health. You know, we wouldn’t suggest that anxiety is not related to low blood sugar or lack of nutrients or challenges with gut microbiome composition. We have great research that do connect the two. So clearly that would be essential for people with sleep issues. To that, we optimize their physiology because the brain is so intricately connected. Now, certainly therapy can help people navigate stress and trauma, and I don’t want to discount that. I think that’s essential as well. But what I think what you’re saying here is that we want to make sure that we’re taking a whole person, whole body, whole life approach, which is absolutely what we do in our work and our practice. So put yourself right now in the shoes of a super busy practitioner who maybe has children, who occasionally might be waking them up in the middle of the night, or they haven’t in a while, but maybe the dog or whatever, and they might be going through a stress, a job change, a divorce, a move, an elderly parent.

Dr. Jessica Drummond (00:17:50) – Where would you begin to help that practitioner who’s just super busy all day? She might have less than an hour all day to herself. Where would she begin to optimize her sleep?

Deepa Kannan (00:18:04) – I think that’s a great question, and I think all of us are pretty much in that zone most of the time, I think, and I always ask everybody, if you could give yourself 30 minutes a day, which is the most powerful thing that will really help you. And I think that for me, I always suggest women especially, begin with the practice of a banga or oil massage, which is self oil massage compared to what you might traditionally hear about in our Veda as go to an Ivy League center and have a massage. And I’m not talking about that, which is why actually we’ve just released an ancient master class where it just tells you how do you choose the right oil no matter the season, the location, it gives you cues as to what is the state of your body at this moment in time. And then once you choose the oil, how you can just give a self oil massage and just lie down if you can.

Deepa Kannan (00:19:08) – If you’ve got 20 minutes, lie down in Shavasana. So feel the earth and the body and then go for a shower. And there’s so much research today that’s coming up that that practice of the herbal oil and self massage lowers cortisol and boosts oxytocin and helps you shift from the sympathetic dominant to the parasympathetic state. So if somebody is really short on time I would say if you can’t do anything else, try to do a banga every day because it’s such a powerful practice and promotes all healing, supports healing on every level and definitely improves sleep. And of course, if you were to look at the concept of food, I think here’s where I also found Jessica a big divide between East and West. For example, there can be a lot of talk in our Veda that the concept of protein is a bit overrated, and I just think that protein plays such a key role in stability and grounding and no matter whether you’re vegan, vegetarian, omnivore, pescatarian, no matter what, for me, I think protein is a big part of the puzzle.

Deepa Kannan (00:20:28) – And that might be a little different to what some of my colleagues might say. But for me, protein is a big part of it. But I’ll just say that whatever you can digest, make sure that you have it in an easy to digest form. And then there are lots and lots of tools from our Veda using oil, for example. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of the practice called Karna Purana, which I have written about in the book where it said that the nervous system or the restless energy Vata in the head zone can be calm down when you oil warm oil into the ear canal, so just dropping a few drops of warm oil into the ear can calm down the nervous system. And I’m somebody who won’t ever suggest a practice to somebody unless I’ve tried it for myself. And I’ve tried that several times, and each time I feel as if, no matter what’s happening around me, that suddenly I feel as if I don’t feel stressed anymore. And those are really powerful practices. And, you know, today there’s a lot spoken about how the cellular membrane is made up of fat and how we need fats for mental health.

Deepa Kannan (00:21:48) – And that’s, I think, if I could say, one powerful tool that I spoke about thousands of years ago is that you can keep the nervous system calm through oiling, whether it’s eating more fats or whether it’s oiling the body from the outside. But both of those support calming down of the nervous system. So if you’re short on time, I would definitely say a bunga bunga bunga all the way because it’s such a powerful practice.

Dr. Jessica Drummond (00:22:20) – That’s excellent. Thank you for that. I think that’s a wonderful practice, because it also really encourages people to create that space for a little bit of self-care. And so the other thing you mentioned, we talk a lot about in functional and integrative medicine, about the opposition between cortisol and insulin. And one of the things you emphasized quite a bit in the book is the seesaw effect between cortisol and oxytocin. And I completely agree with that. I think one of the things that people are really lacking in a adrenal stress world, a hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis stress cortisol levels that are out of balance, and, you know, out of the normal rhythm is that often there’s a lacking of oxytocin.

Dr. Jessica Drummond (00:23:13) – So what are some of your best strategy uses for increasing oxytocin?

Deepa Kannan (00:23:20) – I think that chapter came about, Jessica, from my worst case scenario of my first marriage, and that just gave me the script for the seesaw between cortisol and oxytocin. And then as I started to dive into the research, I did find a lot of those connections. And probably we don’t give enough of attention to that seesaw of oxytocin and cortisol. But I wanted to just illustrate that it’s a powerful tool in our hands. So generally, anything that boost oxytocin will have the downward regulation of cortisol. And I found the research which showed that with again, the oil massage or any massage where we use touch. And as you’ll see in the book, I have given plenty of therapies for each of the senses and how you can use it to calm down a sense. And massage was one of the biggest ways, but I think anything that any good form of touch. So at times we do tend to forget the simple hug of the people around us several times when we’re really busy and we can quickly, a day can spiral into night where we’ve just forgotten to take two minutes out to hug.

Deepa Kannan (00:24:43) – So just having those practices as part of our life that when you wake up in the morning, you seek out your partner or your child and spend two minutes intentionally hugging or doing the same last thing at night, these are things that can quickly get. We take them for granted, and I think we need to be more intentional about that. And I don’t know if you recall, but the chapter also talks a lot about the connection of touched with histamine. And of course, there’s a lot of histamine alleviation in today’s world. And histamine does play a big role when it’s in a state of aggravation. It does prevent optimal sleep. So basically what I was trying to say with the chapter on touch was that it’s the skin is a barometer to tell you that something’s going on within the body and there’s some chaos and that’s preventing sleep. So coming back to oxytocin, I really think it could be as simple as just hugging somebody, taking some time for that. Again, back to the oil massage. So where I didn’t mention in the book, I didn’t want people who are not in relationships or who lived alone to feel as if something is missing in their life.

Deepa Kannan (00:26:05) – And I talked about hugging and sexual gratification. So that’s why I mention clearly, even if you are all alone, you don’t have a partner. You’re not. Living with the family. Massage is the most powerful way that you can boost oxytocin and lower cortisol. And I think anything where we can use touch in a gentle way is a powerful tool to. And I didn’t even talk about the concept of the mudra in yoga. You know, hands where you hold the hand in different ways to calm down the nervous system. So I hadn’t even spoken enough about the mudra. But there are ways where we kind of rewire a nervous system using touch in our hands. So I think there’s a lot more that had they given me the luxury of 200,000 words, a lot more would have been there.

Dr. Jessica Drummond (00:27:03) – So yeah. So I mean, I think that’s so valuable because you’re right, especially post in this sort of continuing pandemic world, we’ll say there is still a sense of loneliness, lack of touch, lack of community.

Dr. Jessica Drummond (00:27:20) – I love how you emphasize in the book. You know, pets also work, so a lot of people really feel more comfortable touching their pets. So I think that sense of self touch, that sense of just if you have access to friends and family that you maybe have kind of stopped hugging, there might be some real value not just to your sleep strategy, but for to your immune system of reconnecting in safe ways. And then one other thing I wanted to ask you about before we wrap up is I saw that you have a section around recommending certain sleep positions, and I wonder you recommended that the kind of gold standard is supine, sleeping or lying on your back. But we have so much data now on the lymphatic system that laying on the side is key for brain cleansing, essentially through the brain lymphatic system, which you do talk about in the book. So I’m just curious, what do you think now about supine side lying? Does it depend on the person? How would you choose that sleeping position?

Deepa Kannan (00:28:33) – I think that’s an excellent question, Jessica, especially since there’s more and more people who are struggling with sleep apnea and lying on their back.

Deepa Kannan (00:28:42) – However, I think I will reiterate that the body, constitution and the state of the body at this moment in time play a very big role. And usually in our diets that somebody with a lot of kapha dosha, which is the element of water and earth, if the coffee is in excess, they will be predisposed towards getting a diagnosis of sleep apnea, because there’s a lot of mucus build up in the region of the neck, in the throat. So it does come back a little bit to I would still reiterate that anybody with those challenges should probably also work with someone who’s equipped in with that to bring the body back to balance from the perspective of the three doses. But I think this is highly bio individual. So, for example, I’ll still say that if you’ve gone out for a meal and you’ve eaten dinner quite late, it does have a lot of value to lie down on your left side with the right nostril facing up so that you’re keeping digestion going since the large intestine goes from right to left.

Deepa Kannan (00:29:52) – However, for somebody like me, who’s very prone to imbalance in the nervous system and slipping into fight or flight, but what airway does says is excess water, then I cannot fall asleep. If I don’t turn to my right with my left nostril facing up, which then calms down the nervous system and removes the chattering mind or kind of slows down the loop of thoughts that go one after the other. So I think it’s very, very individual that if someone is showing those signs of overactive mind, then lie down on your right. If your stomach feels full, and if you’re still feeling like you’re digesting your food, lie down on your left. Sometimes, if the mind is completely overactive, I think there is value for some people who are comfortable lying on the back to even prop the head up a little bit, but lie on the back because it does balance the right and left hemisphere, and therefore it helps the nervous system to calm down and for you to fall asleep. So unless there’s challenges specifically which is preventing them, they they are prone to breathing aspects or challenges with sinus congestion.

Deepa Kannan (00:31:11) – And when you spoke about the lymphatic clearing it’s also those. Fire says. People who’ve got a lot of mucus, who will probably not be able to lie on their back any way because the airway can close. But a lot of the world is the other. They’re they’re not really in that aspect. They’re more of the vata and the pitta, which are more chattery mind. And I think there’s benefit for them to still be able to lie on their back if they’re not prone to those sinus issues or breath issues. So it really depends. And it’s so nuanced, and I think everybody is so in unique. And they’ll have to just figure that out for themselves, which is why I offered a lot of nuances, even in that section on sleeping position. And there were a lot of subtle nuances as to how you might choose. And then invariably, I think we also have to end that by saying that the body has an innate way of going into the position that is best for it. So once you’re asleep, you’re anyway going to fall into a position, and you’re probably not going to be aware of what you choose, which only happens when you’re just trying to fall asleep.

Dr. Jessica Drummond (00:32:27) – Right? Of course. And you know, that’s so valuable because when you’re laying on the right, you’re left nostril is exposed to your more left nostril breathing, which is parasympathetic activating when you’re perimenopausal, for example, or postpartum and your estrogen is low, you’re more prone to airway dysfunction and sleep apnea. So that might be a time. And at the same time, you’re also more likely to gain weight to have less metabolic fire. So that’s more of a kapha kind of experience. So I could envision a perimenopausal woman who, you know, she’s in her late 40s, she’s juggling everything. She is more in fight or flight, but she’s also starting to have this irregular estrogen decline, having some weight gain, having some mucus and airway impacts and sinus impacts, problems with detoxification. So there could be this kind of side to side through the night needs more detoxification of the brain, feeling more brain foggy. So I think the sleeping position is obviously one piece of the puzzle. And during the day we’re going to be addressing all of those things.

Dr. Jessica Drummond (00:33:46) – We’re going to be looking at her estrogen levels. We’re going to be looking at her parasympathetic suppression because of maybe a chronic stress situation. So I think it’s so valuable to look at this through this lens, because it does bring so many things together for women that are going through transitional times, which is a lot of who we see in our practices postpartum women, perimenopausal, menopausal or just women who maybe are perfectly normally from a hormone standpoint, they’re 35, not pregnant, feeling well, and then they have a big stressor, like a divorce or, you know, a move or a job loss or child who’s sick or something like that. And then we have to reassess. So I think your personal story is so valuable to being able to see all of the nuances that you really dive deep in into your book. So thanks so much for sharing that with us. Is there anything else you want to leave our community with that you know can help with their sleep or their sleep recovery?

Deepa Kannan (00:34:56) – I think just what I started with Jessica is that, I mean, we’re all doing amazing things, but we’re human and we must be sensitive to ourselves and the women around us when we’re going through difficult times.

Deepa Kannan (00:35:10) – And don’t ever let anybody tell you that you’re a health practitioner. How can you be having challenges? Because you’re just human. And I mean, we’re doing so many things with juggling so many things that let’s just show each other a lot of love. And I think that women should keep lifting each other up. And I think that’s all I’ll say, that women can really change the course of women. We can either bring somebody down or we can lift them up. And I think we should just all be lifting each other up.

Dr. Jessica Drummond (00:35:46) – Beautiful. All right. Thank you so much for joining us today, Deepa. And I strongly encourage everyone to go get her brand new book on sleep. It will walk you through ten specific steps that are all important, and you’ll see which one for you most resonates. Because it’s time for women to support each other and for all of us to get a lot better sleep. So thanks so much. Have a great day, everybody. Thanks for joining us.

Deepa Kannan (00:36:16) – Thanks, Jessica.

Dr. Jessica Drummond (00:36:22) – That was a fascinating conversation with Deepa, and I hope you learned from our little tussle about which is the best sleeping side. Should your client sleep on her side? On her back? On her right side. Her left side. It all depends on where she needs a little bit more support. So I think we ultimately came to an agreement between our wisdom and research on the lymphatic system. And that conversation. We also talked a lot about oxytocin, and we talk a lot about insulin as being a sort of seesaw opposite of cortisol. But I don’t think we do talk enough about oxytocin. We have to help our clients get more oxytocin. We are not a pleasure seeking society except for things that are really numbing. And we need to reconnect with that nourishment of oxytocin. It’s one of the most under discussed hormones out there, but essential for sleep. I know so many of your clients and maybe you have sleep problems, so go grab deep US book How to Sleep Better, and I want you to share with me in the comments.

Dr. Jessica Drummond (00:37:33) – Like what did you learn from this book? It’s such a unique take on sleep because it really does integrate our medicine and our perspectives and wisdom with research on sleep that we need to be integrating into our practice for everybody. All right. I hope you enjoyed this conversation and I’ll see you next time. Thank you so much for joining me today for this episode of the Integrative Women’s Health Podcast. Please share this episode with a colleague and if you loved it, hit that subscribe or follow button on your favorite podcast streaming service so that we can do even more to make this podcast better for you and your clients. Let’s innovate and integrate in the world of women’s health.