From Burnout To Passion In Our Work with Physical Therapist Dr. Sara Sohn

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:00:03 Hi and welcome to the Integrative Women’s Health Podcast. I’m your host, Doctor Jessica Drummond, and I am so thrilled to have you here as we dive into today’s episode. As always, innovating and integrating in the world of women’s health. And just as a reminder, the content in this podcast episode is no substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment from your medical or licensed health care team. While myself and many of my guests are licensed healthcare professionals, we are not your licensed healthcare professionals, so you want to get advice on your unique circumstances. Diagnostic recommendations treatment recommendations from your home medical team. Enjoy the episode. Let’s innovate and integrate together Hi and welcome everyone to the Integrative Women’s Health Podcast. I’m your host, Doctor Jessica Drummond, founder and CEO of the Integrative Women’s Health Institute. Today, I have a juicy episode for you with Sarah Stone. She is a physical therapist, and we got into some very fascinating topics because she’s also left that traditional physical therapy workplace and really developed an interesting business that I think will inspire you.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:01:37 It’s multifaceted. There are a lot of different aspects to it. So if you’ve ever been struggling with like, oh, I’m interested in so many things, what should I focus on? What should I do next? How do I niche down now? I strongly encourage niching from a marketing perspective, but I also encourage people building whatever it is they want. And sometimes that starts with one specific niche and can expand. And in this conversation, we’re going to talk about how to think about building that next level thing for yourself, whether it’s work related or not. And we have a really important conversation within this about burnout and the tools that Sarah uses with her clients to help take the blame and shame out of burnout. And we’ll share a lot of several of our personal stories around burnout and what that looks like in practice and in entrepreneurship and in just life as a woman. So if you’re struggling with burnout at any stage, you’re, I think, really going to enjoy this conversation. And just to introduce you, doctor Sarah is the founder of Confident Pelvic Rehab, a private practice in Jacksonville Beach and an online sexual wellness certificate for professionals.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:03:03 It’s called the Sexual Wellness Leader. She offers a brave space for health providers to step out of burnout and into a fulfilling career in sexual wellness, and you can reach out to her at Better Sex by Sara Dotcom and Sara spelled Sara so better. Sex by Sarah. Com and in the show notes. And at the end of the episode, we’ll also let you know how to get access to more of her resources. She’s a really inspiring speaker. She has a really fascinating and fun story. If you’re a swimmer, you’ll love this even more. So, let’s dive in to the episode and I’ll see you on the other side. Hi, and welcome back to the Integrative Women’s Health Podcast. I’m Doctor Jessica Drummond founder and CEO of the Integrative Women’s Health Institute and your host for today’s episode, I am here with Sarah Stone, and we are going to have a, I hope, fascinating and wide ranging conversation about burnout, especially for women’s and pelvic health professionals, for health and wellness professionals who are feeling overwhelmed and burned out by the challenging work that we do every day.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:04:26 So welcome, Sarah. Thanks so much for being here with us today.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:04:30 Thank you. I’m so excited about this topic. And you know, currently where I am physically and timewise in my life, this is the perfect time to have this conversation, so I’d love to even just start there and give you some context of where I’m sitting and where I am, but I’m thrilled to be here. This is such a good conversation.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:04:49 Yeah, absolutely. Let’s start there. And I’d also love to hear What made you interested in becoming an expert in burnout? What’s your personal story around that?

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:05:04 So I don’t know if I’m an expert in burnout, but I would say I’m pretty good at living a good work life balance. So I’m currently at the moment actually sitting on my mom’s couch and my mom, I’m visiting. My family is an ob gyn. My mom had her own practice, so growing up I saw that she had multiple locations and actually they all went out of business and she was incredibly burnt out.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:05:30 So I think I was very fearful to go to medical school. I was very fearful of anything to do with medicine, because I saw what medicine did to my own mother and to people, and then going to physical therapy school, being so interested, just like you, in helping people with their most intimate private concerns. That part, the emotional part, the like labor of really holding people in their most tender places in their life isn’t talked about. And I felt so beyond burnt out work. And I have my own practice. But working for someone else, being in charge of the physical therapy assistant schedules and my own, and having like 20 minutes per person. And I honestly thought that I was just terrible at my job. I was like, wow, I picked the wrong profession. I am terrible at this. Like 20 minutes go by and I’ve only really gotten to know them. Just like, oh, you have three children, tell me more. You know, I thought, wow, Sarah, you’re quirky.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:06:29 You have too much ADHD. This is not the job for you. This career. Like, literally, I was like, I’m gonna have to become a sign language interpreter. So there was one day I really recognized I was burnt out. I was like, and this is like a little shameful for me. So just hold space and tenderness for that. But I was seeing a patient, and I remember she started to get really emotional, and she was crying and telling me something about her pelvic pain. And my first thought wasn’t empathy. It wasn’t how can I console this person? My first thought, which terrified me, was, well, expletive. I’m not going to get to eat lunch today. And that scared me. That is not me. I did not go into this career for that to be my thought. When someone shares something so sensitive about their pelvic pain, and so I didn’t realize it at the time. But, you know, hindsight has so many lessons. At the time I was like, I need to go in an adventure, and I’m not exaggerating.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:07:29 I booked a solo trip from Panama to Antarctica right before the pandemic, and we all know what happened with the pandemic. So I didn’t quit my job, but I said, I’m going to Antarctica.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:07:42 Right.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:07:42 You’re like, I’ll be right back.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:07:43 Yeah.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:07:46 And funny story, I actually got stuck in Antarctica because of Covid. So that’s a whole separate thing. But that experience, I’m like, okay, once I start it came back and I started my own practice and I really did it in the way that feels good to me. Not only do I have the confidence like, wow, I am amazing at this job. I’m not bad at this job. I’m bad at doing ten things at the same time. That’s unrealistic. Not only do my patients have better outcomes and they’re happier because I spent you know, not everyone has this liberty, but I spent a lot of time with each of my clients. But I also have confidence in my pricing. So burnout isn’t just about like, go take a bath.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:08:31 It’s about having a structure that supports you from being able to live how you want to live. It supports my pricing. I feel very confident in my pricing, which is higher than most people would feel comfortable to say out loud. Literally, the reason I’m at my mom’s house, Jessica, is because I don’t do this all the time. But I just went backpacking in New Zealand for two months. I feel confident to take time off. If that’s my dreams. It’s really changed. Even how I view burnout and view that for my own patients. You know, it’s changed my whole lens to how can we create within the structure of their life that they have to do you have to get food on the table for your kids? It’s not bubble baths, right? Like, what are the actual things that we can do where they can see change and not just feel bad all the time, like they’re not doing enough. They’re bad at their job. They’re bad as a mom, you know, especially with women.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:09:29 Yeah. Before we go on, I really appreciate you sharing that story because I think our listeners right now who are in clinical or coaching jobs that are being basically driven by other people’s productivity standards, by hospital based productivity standards, you know we forget that this system evolved roughly 20 years ago, maybe slightly longer now. I forget that the 20 years ago wasn’t the 80s, right? So probably 30 years ago, but 20, 25 years ago, health care shifted from being driven by clinicians to being driven by finance, essentially people who had trained in business and finance, who don’t have that clinical lens for what that personal work really is. And the fact that I think everyone has had that moment where they’re sitting in front of a client and saying, gosh, I’m not going to get to have lunch right now. And as a clinician, I remember a similar thought. I was pregnant, probably with my second daughter at this point. And I remember sitting in front of a client who was also pregnant and coming to me for back pain.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:10:47 And I was like, well, I’m pretty sure my back hurts worse than hers. And so, yeah, you know, when you’re in this moment where you’re like, oh, you know, do I have the energy to take care of this person? Not to mention the time and the cognitive attention? So everyone has felt that moment? Well, I wouldn’t say everyone has felt that. But if you have felt that moment, that’s very, very common and is a little yellow flag that you might be on the path to burnout because not necessarily of the job because, you know, sometimes the jobs are what they are, and we may have to adapt within that. But as you said, we need to create a structure that allows us to have autonomy over our time or energy that may or may not align with certain jobs. And so how long were you in practice before you felt that?

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:11:50 Yeah. Is it okay if I actually just speak to what you just said about validation? Because I really agree with you.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:11:55 I think one of the first signs of burnout that isn’t talked about enough is that looking for validation for our pain, especially if we’re starting to do it with our loved ones and our clients. So it’s like, oh, but my back hurts even more, and you’re wanting to be valid because there’s grief here. It gets easy for me, right? I’m 32 years old. I recognize him a lot younger than a lot of my peers, and it’s easy to be like, well, it’s easy for her. She’s a XYZ, you know, this 32 year old and really being grounded in the privilege that I do have, that maybe someone else doesn’t, and also grounded in the systemic problems that exist we can’t just fix like quickly, overnight, even if we want to. But when you start really looking for that validation of well, I’m not getting as much sleep as you know. I had four kids and I wasn’t tired. So therefore my patient doesn’t need to be tired. Like, that’s how you know that that’s starting to really eat away at why you maybe started to do this in the first place.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:12:58 And it’s a normal brain activity. Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:13:00 I think when your brain starts to be like, you think this is bad? You know, it’s not that either of us said those things out loud, but I think that a lot of people have probably experienced that little yellow flag of like, a client says something important and vulnerable, and, you know, they’re sharing your story, but in your mind you’re like, you think that’s bad, blah, blah, blah, you know, and I think, as you said, when that’s your kind of like first brain reaction, it’s a really important sign to bring awareness to that. Like you’re not supported enough to do the challenging work of holding space for someone else who’s also being challenged. So I think it’s fascinating that we both had that experience. And for me, I was well, let’s see, my second daughter was born when I was 36, so I was probably 35 ish. And I think that by that time I’d been practicing for maybe ten years or so, maybe a little bit longer.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:14:03 And so, you know, it doesn’t have to be that long into your career. You know, that was like the first, third even of my career that you can feel this. You can feel this when it’s your first couple years out of school. And I think it’s still important to pay attention to. But the problem there is, as you’re saying, then you’re like, oh, shoot, what am I going to do? This is what I’ve trained for. This is what I’ve spent all this money for in training. How do I make that transition? So you were relatively early in your career as well. So then obviously you went on that vacation. But it’s one thing to take a little break, which is important. I think sometimes people just need to take a little break. But it’s another thing to when you came back, you actually transformed your work. So talk a little bit about that.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:14:50 Yeah. So I wasn’t a new grad. I was only practicing under I think five years, something like that.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:14:57 And when I came back and I think it’s important to have peers around you and your first practicing, but I really wanted to start my own practice. And, you know, we were all in this global pandemic. So I thought, well, this is a good time to do this. People are wanting one on one care. So I started going in homes. You know, people are wanting one on one care in their home. They’re not leaving their home, that kind of thing. And now I’ve grown to having my own practice and I’m a multi interested person. And I used to think that that associative thinking, the way that my brain works, I don’t know if you attract other divergent people, but I used to think that the way that my brain works, to have many interests, to have very associative thinking, where I connect many dots, that that was a terrible thing, especially terrible as a medical provider Writer, but I’ve really become confident in who I am and use that to my advantage, so I do.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:15:46 My weeks are very varied, which is something I personally need. So Wednesdays and Thursdays I see clients in the clinic in person Tuesdays and every other Friday. This is, you know, evolved into this. But Tuesdays and every other Friday I do a mixture of online telehealth and see I have a sexual wellness like online program for health providers. And then Mondays are the things that everyone doesn’t actually put on their calendar, but they take a lot of time, like this podcast recording or, you know, like the random meeting you wanted to have as an entrepreneur, the accountant, you know, all that kind of stuff that the invisible tasks that actually take a lot of labor. And, you know, honestly, that was really scary when I first started. None of that was how I did it. I just said, oh, you want to see me? When is the best time for you? Thursday at 9 p.m.. I can make that work slowly and slowly I made boundaries. And that’s, you know, part of what I want to talk about today with preventing burnout.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:16:46 I actually kind of deeply thought about this, about the systemic causes and about what we can personally do to be our fiery selves and fight back against it. But the first step really is at grief. You know, stepping away from that shame and that grief of maybe feeling like it’s all your fault. Like if you just exercised more, if you just slept more, if you just woke up a little earlier, 4 a.m., 3 a.m., 2 a.m. after you breastfed your baby and did 18 things for your business if you just, you know, saw another client, if you just lowered your prices, raise your prices, if you were just brave enough to hire someone, if you just started a podcast, a Facebook group, an email list, like an Instagram, when you have that kind of thinking, you’re going to go insane. So the first step is letting that grief go. Of all the things that you feel like you should be doing and getting a little bit clear of, there is absolutely no shame in my schedule.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:17:41 Like that was so hard for me to accept. Like I mentioned, my mom had multiple businesses. My mom sees babies and she can speak multiple languages. You know, I always felt like I had to be able to do so much. When we’re real about what our gifts are, and we’re real about letting some of that go, we can really craft that business relationship in a way that works for us. And even if you don’t have your own business, the thing I want to teach you in small ways, you can start to adapt into your own life.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:18:13 Yeah, yeah. And I think you made a few really important points there. One is that in the beginning, if you are starting your own practice, whatever that looks like, if it’s multifaceted, if it’s health coaching, if it’s pelvic rehab, you know, I think we have to be honest about the fact that in the really early startup phases, there is a lot of just hustle and I think sometimes after you’ve done it and you’ve gotten to a place where things are much more manageable and boundary, you know, people are like, don’t do what I did and work 24 over seven.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:18:48 But the reality is, everyone who’s successful does put in a little time. It doesn’t have to be a decade. It could be six months, it could be a year, it could be two years, something like that. It’s not a long, long time. But where they do hustle, you know, in some way they’re working at 9 p.m. there. I remember another colleague of ours was telling me she, like, would bring her rehab table to kind of like the trailhead, knowing that there were going to be some people coming off a trail run with some like knee issues. And she could just meet them right there. Like, you know, there’s a hustle to it that I think we have to be honest about when people are kind of exploring, building their own thing. But then, as you’re saying, then you begin to unravel or unwrap or explore the things that one of our master coaches, Kathy Gross, calls your free space. Like, what is the thing that you not only are good at, but you like to do because you don’t have to do everything that you’re good at if you don’t like to do it.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:19:52 Yeah, no, it’s definitely a good point of remembering what that feels like when you first started. But I think what you get better at really is adaptability of change. So I think what happens to the beginning is like you feel like you have to do all of these things because you’re not entirely sure where it’s working, and it’s hard to let go of certain things because then you feel like the time there was wasted. Let’s say, I know you obviously love doing this podcast, but let’s say you invested all this time in this podcast and it wasn’t actually bringing you to a dream of yours, which maybe, like my dream was to be able to go to New Zealand for two months if I wanted to. Maybe yours is to be able to take your whole family to Christmas. Something I don’t know, whatever. And you realize you know what? It’s not actually bringing me there. It could be so Hard to adapt and change, especially as an entrepreneur without permission from somewhere, a mentor or something that says, you know what? Like you didn’t waste time.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:20:46 You can be validated in seeing that you didn’t waste time, but that you need to make a change. And I think that’s what people get stuck in, is like, they don’t want to feel like they wasted all that time doing their real challenge for an entire year or, you know, whatever it is, when in reality, it was really the simple thing, like setting up a table at the park, you know what I mean? Like, that was the thing that was actually connecting with people.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:21:08 Yes. Yeah. That’s a really important point, especially for people kind of stepping into an entrepreneur journey. But I also think what’s fascinating there is the biggest one of those is people’s degree. Right. Like how many of our graduates have you know, I have several graduates who are physicians who are ready to let that go and become health coaches. And they’re felt like this. It was so hard to do that. And I think we see the same thing with any nurse practitioners, physical therapists. There’s a lot.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:21:42 And it’s not to say you have to completely let go of your degree or your license. Some people decide to do that, but to even just not use it and go in a different direction for a while is a scary thing.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:21:54 Change is terrifying and change alone, especially change that is somewhat subversive. You’re doing something the society is telling you to do slightly different, like not overwork. Be selfless to the end of your depths like I was expressing about. I’m in my mom’s craft room. I’m so proud of her. She learned that lesson in a much harder way. And luckily, being her daughter, being able to learn those lessons through someone else and someone else to give you that permission of like, hey, I’ve been there, I’ve made this change. It was really hard. It was so scary. But now it’s working for me and I think it will for you too, you know, just like, yeah, hold you there.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:22:31 So if someone is feeling in that space of overwhelm and stuckness and they’re not sure what’s next for them, they’re not sure what to let go of, they’re not sure what to lean into, and they’re physically and emotionally just feeling kind of depleted.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:22:47 Where would you suggest they begin?

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:22:49 So if someone’s feeling emotionally depleted, where would I suggest they begin? Always here. So I created this acronym and it’s not hokey. I really put a lot of contemplation and a lot of thought here. So I’m going to use it because I think it’s clever.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:23:04 Yeah, great.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:23:05 Instead of burnout, I call it burn. Burn. In the show notes, I can send a video about this, but the B stands for brag, and that’s because it worked with the word. What do I actually mean by that? I actually mean how important it is when we want to make a change. The combat to wanting to make a change that doesn’t feel like we’re making a change from shame, and it doesn’t feel like we’re making a change from I need to fix myself because I’m not XYZ enough. Is having some form of gratitude. So what do I mean by that? Like okay, I’m a swimmer. Are you a swimmer by chance?

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:23:43 I mean, I can swim, but I’m not like an expert swimmer.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:23:47 Yes.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:23:49 I am not fast, but I love open water swimming, so I love to swim really big distances in cold water. And I’m not very fast. And that was important because I’m often by myself. I’m the last little minnow that the shark’s going to attack, and I’m even wearing my swim watch like I love to swim, right? So as we swim, we go like, you know, one, two, three. Breathe. And the way that I look at it is you have one stroke is in gratitude and one is in desire. So as soon as you hit the thing that you really always wanted, you always wanted to talk to your boss and take every Thursday off and now you’re doing it. You’re always going to think of the next thing you want. You know, I actually might want to start my own business. And then you do that thing and you’re like, I actually really want to hire someone to do all my social media. And then you do that thing and you never actually pause to celebrate it.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:24:43 Like you’re always just be like, I want to do this now. I want to do this, and I want to do this, and I want to do this. And you’re never actually feeling proud of yourself. So I call it like, you know, that swim. And I heard this from a different person that called it a walk, but a swim of one foot in gratitude and one in desire. Like, you know, the things going to medical school, going to physical therapy school gave me this compassion and celebrating this way to think about people in the world. I’m so proud of myself, and yet I am desiring to start to do more coaching and not have to work underneath my license all of the time and be able to see people internationally and maybe start my own online program for hormone wellness, because that’s something I’m so passionate about. And I just love to help people, especially in a group format or whatever. The thing is, right? So it’s one foot in desire, one foot in gratitude.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:25:34 This swim, and I call it bragging. And it’s stretchy, especially for women I think can be very difficult to do this. So maybe I can even ask you to try. So we have burn. So we’re going to have four things. But maybe you could just celebrate something and maybe something you’re desiring for fun if you feel comfortable. Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:25:52 Yeah. And it’s funny, this reminds me of probably 20 years ago now or maybe a little bit less. I learned from, wonderful. Kind of like women’s motivator. Her name was Regina Thomas. Our. She’s still alive. Where she has this whole idea of bragging, right. Of women kind of stepping into. And it’s similar, although it’s slightly different from what you’re talking about. Women stepping into. The first thing a man will say when you meet him is his credentials. You know, this is hard for women. So for me, I would say a depth of gratitude that I have started a really successful podcast. We only launched it about 12 weeks ago, and it’s top 30 in Integrative Women’s Health.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:26:39 And so I’m feeling excited about that. It’s been a lot of fun. This is I love podcasts in general. And then in terms of desire, you know, one of the next steps for us is we’re actually going to be, as a family, kind of simplifying our lives a little bit. And we’re moving to a different area in a few months to just be a little closer to my other daughter and just kind of prioritize how our family has shifted in the last few years. So it’s both. Yeah.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:27:14 Whoa. Talk about changes. I feel like the audience is listening. Can’t see my exuberant hand gestures, but they’re very excited for. I’m very excited for you. Those are for a lot of people listening. They’re nervous. System probably just went, oh my gosh, you’re moving and starting a podcast at the same time. But that’s something by practicing this, like being rooted in desire, being rooted in gratitude, that’s how you’re able to do it, because you’re proud of something that you did and you’re always, no matter what it was, even if this podcast was like, I mean, I’m so glad you’re having me, and I think I’m pretty awesome, but imagine I was like, all the celebrities that you want to have on here, you know, like you’d be like, well, what’s next? Am I going to be on TV? You know, where’s Oprah?

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:27:57 Right, right, right.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:27:59 Yeah. And I mean, I think what’s so interesting is like, I’ve done these kinds of things now since 2006. So that’s almost 20 years and it gets easier. And so I think when you have that perspective, it really does get easier and it becomes clearer. So you were like, oh they’ll be celebrities. You’ll be on TV like awesome. None of that has any appeal to me whatsoever. I mean Some of that is fine. Like if I had people who had a larger platform who had endometriosis that could help expand that, that would be great. Or we could talk about perimenopause or something. But I think what’s also really fascinating is once you really do this in alignment with you, there’s a lot of things that seem cool from a societal standpoint that you actually don’t care about. And that’s freeing to.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:28:49 you model this so well when you do things not just for yourself, but for other people, that really helps you to when both are considered like, what’s going to make it where I’m living, in the place I want to be living, and having the work life balance and supporting people.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:29:05 Like when you think about those at the same time, that really helps to make it much more clear of what your actual desire is and not vanity and all these things that we feel like it should be.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:29:17 Yeah, but thanks for that. I think that’s a really useful tool, that balance, because there’s a lot of talk of like, what’s your vision? And we do this in coaching too, but also that celebration of what you’ve already done. You know who you can be grateful to, to helping get you to this place because nobody ever does it in a vacuum.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:29:38 Yes. You know, and some of these ideas I do want to mention, have you read the book real Self-care by Pooja Lakshmi?

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:29:45 I haven’t, but well added to the list.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:29:48 So I have a fun book club and I mostly do this for myself to read a book that I want to read once a month. And this book is by a psychiatrist that focuses on women’s health, and she has a quote. It’s high time that we stop telling women they need to be fixed.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:30:04 This work isn’t about fixing ourselves. And I think this first step, right, of being really rooted in celebration and desire changes that narrative slowly over time. Like when you find yourself thinking like, wow, like I did, I’m terrible at this job. This was my dream job, right? And I’m like, I’m terrible at this. This is, you know, I need to go do something completely different. I think that’s when you can really step into this tool.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:30:32 Yeah. Excellent. Thank you for that. So what is step two?

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:30:36 Okay, so we have Bern. This is fun. So be it was brag you is your unique desire. So really thinking about and it goes right into that. Just like we were saying when you’re grounded in those things and what it is not just for you but also for other people, it helps you to be very clear about what your unique desires are, and I think it can help to put them as micro doses on your calendar. So I’m not saying like, okay, let’s say you have a desire truly to read more books.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:31:08 This is a great example. I think having a microdose for yourself to read a page a day or do it, I need parallel things like so I have to start a book club or something, right? Like putting it in your calendar as it’s microdose of what you’re going to do for you on a daily basis, and then even something on a monthly basis on your calendar. That’s a microdose for me. I do a microdose for myself and a microdose for us, as in me and my partner. But that might look different for you. But really being unique about what those things are, because it’s not about bubble baths. It’s a verb. You’re always putting in these boundaries for something that’s important to you, that reminds you of what’s important to you, even in a microdose way. Like, I drink my coffee in this cup outside or my low acid, whatever. I know we’re a bunch of pelvic health providers in there and health coaches and whatever. Nobody food shaming me right now. My hormones.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:32:05 But you know, like your herbal tea blend with lemon and ginger outside, whatever.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:32:10 Yes, yes. And sure, coffee has lots of antioxidants, so sometimes it’s good for people. Excellent. All right. So step one is that balance between gratitude and desire. Step two is that your desires are unique to you, and I think that’s a really interesting exploration. Rather than that free space that Cathy, our master coach, is always talking about. Like your desires are different from someone else’s and that dream job that you thought you had evolved into a different dream job. And you know, you could step into that too. There’s more possibility out there. Okay. Then people have given them a little space. So they’re in the burnout phase right now, but they’re going to take two hours on a weekend and just be like, what do I even want? They’re going to just play with the you step. What’s the R step?

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:33:01 You know, honestly, I don’t even want it to be two hours.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:33:04 I literally mean a microdose like the smallest change possible towards something that you’re wanting.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:33:12 But what if they don’t know what it is yet? Like they need a little time to know what it is, right?

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:33:17 Yeah. So say if you don’t know what it is yet. Then get grounded in your senses. So like literally I do this with my clients because a lot of my clients, whether they be the entrepreneurs or people with pelvic pain, I have them really learn about the senses that they like like the smells, the sights, the tastes and put that, the smells, the sights, the taste into something you’re already doing. Like I shower and when I shower, it is a Jessica shower. I put on this playlist that it is like the Drummond playlist I put on this smell because I just love this smell, you know, really kind of grounding in your senses. And you do that every day, being reminded who the expletive you are. It’ll help you to get more and more confident in like, oh, this is who I am.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:34:00 What’s next for me? Sometimes it’s as simple as that, like a microdose. But from there the R that I put is rest sandwich. So I always say that rest has to be sandwiched with the compassion for the guilt that comes up when you have boundaries around rest, so the rest has to be sandwiched with compassion and boundaries. Because when you say, I want to take a nap, there’s a lot of messaging that that nap, even as simple as a nap, is somewhat bad. That you should be listening to something or rest is, for a lot of people, very challenging, especially high achieving people that are probably listening to this podcast. So really, it’s creating that Rest sandwich where you have compassion and boundaries. So what are my boundaries around this period of rest? And then what compassion do I need either for myself or from another person? Like sometimes Gabor Mat says that that compassion has to be gifted. It’s really hearing that from a partner, from someone you love. Like my partner, he’s an amazing sleeper.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:35:06 There could be 18 war zones outside and he would just take a nap. Like one time we were in this tent with bugs that were the size of my hand, and this man took a nap. I’m like, what are you doing? You’ll have a hard day. And I’m like, oh, we need to do this. We need to do this. We need to make this ready. And he’s just, okay, I’ll do that in like two hours after my nap. And I’m like, what do you mean? Yeah, but I needed that compassion from him. Like, hey, you know, you’re really good at putting boundaries around your need for sleep. And I’m not like, can you offer that compassion to me a little bit when I say I want to nap? Like, yes, Sarah, don’t feel bad. Go take a nap. I got this because that doesn’t come as easy for me. Yeah, you know what I mean?

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:35:50 Well, and I think for this step in particular, it can be useful to look at what were your models.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:35:58 Right. So my guess is your mom, given the little bit of a story you shared about her, wasn’t a big napper. Whereas it’s interesting, in my experience, a complete opposite like my grandmother strongly encouraged naps. My mom is the best sleeper on the planet So same with me. I go to bed every night at like 930. My husband could be reading. All the lights could be on. In fact, I remember I was at a conference, I was sharing a room with a colleague and I’m like, do whatever. Actually, this has happened to me several times. I’ll just flat fall asleep. All the lights can be on. And I think it’s interesting if you have role models that value rest, this is a lot easier than if you don’t. And it’s helpful. And I think same thing with any of these steps. If you have role models who valued gratitude, who valued, you know, living into their own desires, some of these steps might be easier for you if it was just a natural part of your life, versus if you have to change what you were taught early on.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:37:02 That can make it tougher, because there certainly are other things that I wasn’t modeled that I had to work on. So I just think that’s a valuable thing to just get curious about.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:37:12 Well, let me ask you, being a person that is a self-proclaimed good napper.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:37:17 Good napper? Yeah.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:37:19 I find that people almost feel some validation from you that it’s okay to take a nap when they’re around you, right? Like just by being that way, you probably inspire that in others. Well, the person that was in your hotel room, for example.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:37:35 I mean, maybe I’m not so much sure if it was them, but. Well, I have two daughters and one is just more high energy than the other, although she even spends, you know, she has her like laying in bed watching a show time. And there’s never been, like, any guilt around that. Like, she does that and the little one who’s not so little anymore, she’s almost 14, but she falls asleep next to me half the time, and I recognize in her that she’s just not naturally as high energy as the other one.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:38:04 And it’s been hard for me. I was anyway a more high energy person in general, just naturally. So it’s been hard for me to really respect her bigger need for rest. But I think the fact that we do have a pretty calm evening, no one’s up to like, midnight in the house working or doing anything. You know, we go to bed and we’re tired, we take a nap. And I think the little one does feel like it’s okay to do that. Like she needs her rest and she’s a person who does take it like she. She’s like, I need to go take a bath. I need to go do my skincare and lay down like she does. Do all of the self-care stuff pretty naturally at 13. So my kids, yes, I think they’ve picked it up. Other people, I’m not sure.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:38:55 That’s beautiful. And like you mentioned, it can look different for so many people. It’s not always a nap, you know, sometimes it’s even like, I’m like you, a high energy person.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:39:05 I feel rested by this sometimes. Right? I’m doing something that I feel is important to me and exciting and a great conversation. So for me, my microdose might be I really need a conversation with people, and I need those conversations as as I’m becoming an adult to be on my calendar like my girlfriends from college. We talk once a month on the first Thursday of every month, and that’s what’s in my calendar. You know what I mean? Like, that’s the thing that makes me feel rested. It’s not always sleep, but this really does bring me to the last one if you want me to step into there. So you were asking me earlier. Well, what if you don’t know about your desires? And so I wanted to talk about that and include that in my answer for and for burn. So burn was Bragg unique desires rest. And then N is your North star. So your context of why you’re choosing the things that you’re choosing to do. And in the show notes, I’ll give you the link for some of this thinking of where someone talk about this.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:40:09 But really, the difference between thinking versus contemplating. You know, thinking is that thought, that loop that drains you. It’s like, I really should send that email. I should send that email, I should send that email. But what should I say? But if I send that email, you know, and you could have just sent the email in two minutes. Five minutes. Right? Right. It’s that thought in order to it’s that loop and it’s draining. You usually feel stressed after you do it and you think in some capacity. If I think about it, it’s going to somehow take less time. Whereas contemplating is when you think, why is this difficult for me to do this? And how can I be result oriented and really contemplate of refine what can give me clarity here? You know, it’s actually really difficult for me to send emails because I am dyslexic and I worry that I’m going to say something wrong. And what tools do I need in order to make this where it’s not so scary, whatever it is, right? And really being honest and contemplating with yourself.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:41:11 So I think the more that we can catch, is this something worth contemplating or is this just something I need to just freaking do and I’m thinking about? It’s not actually something needs to be contemplated, right? Right, right. And then when we spend some time contemplating, you can get a little bit closer to your values and what’s really important to you. Like I’ve heard you mention, your daughter’s super important to you and being able to have home where at night it’s just expected that we are not working. We are going to sleep like, these are your values. These are things that are probably infused in your work. They’re infused in what you teach. They’re infused in your client care. They’re infused in your family. It’s who you are. It’s not just something you talk about. And so really contemplating around what are a few of your values. And that will help you to have that North Star for everything else beforehand. Like, this is why I celebrate when I close my computer at 7 p.m. and I celebrate that.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:42:11 And even if I’m desiring that, I have an assistant to help me do that even more, and this is my unique desire, is because I want my family to know that night time is for connection, and I’m doing that right. And this is my microdose of rest. Because when I turn off my computer, I light a candle. When that candles lit, I am not answering the phone for anybody. That’s not an emergency, you know, like then you start to really be able to we’re talking about it like it’s a linear thing and oh, you brag and then, you know, this is like a circular. Yeah. Just a way of living like concepts in a fun little acronym that you can remember or not remember. But just like, how can I do this in a circular way and even notice ways that, for example, you’re already doing this and you can celebrate it and do even more and more?

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:43:00 Yeah, I really like that. I think that Northstar, you have to know where you’re going at some level to be able to keep that moving, you know, swimming, if you will, in the right direction.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:43:12 So before we wrap up, what has been the hardest thing about, you know, making this work transition for you.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:43:18 To my own private practice. Oh perpetual fear because I help entrepreneurs with some of this too, like you do. And they’ll say, you know, how do I just get rid of that fear that no patient will ever call to book a consult with me? And I am like that. Fear is part of what you signed up for. But you prove to yourself that in the reality I’ve never I have not had a single month where I didn’t have a higher income and better life balance at all, and not even just a little bit like a lot better since I’ve started even the first month I started. So you proved yourself more and more that you can trust, and you can trust that some months are going to be higher than others, that this kind of up and down is normal that fear starts to evolve into trust. And also you start to look at fear differently, because fear is very close to that excitement of change.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:44:18 You know, they feel the same in our body. They don’t always feel that different. And so you start to think, oh, okay, this means I actually care about this thing. Like I actually care about clients seeing me because I know that my work is making a difference. So you start to look at it not as such, this terrible thing, but learning to do that. It was so scary and learning to change outcome. I fear that fear means I’m somehow doing something wrong that I am wrong into. This is just a normal part of entrepreneurship, and the more that you try and do different things and grow and not be stagnant, the more that you’ll learn to process that emotion. But it’s not going to go anywhere, you know? I’m sure there’s things that you’re still a little bit scared of sometimes, even when starting this podcast, that’s been very successful.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:45:09 Oh, sure. I mean, yeah, I think it’s, as you said, your relationship with trying new things with fears.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:45:20 I would say the older I’ve gotten, the less afraid I am of things like work related things, for sure. I mean, I had a very intense experience where I almost died of Covid pretty rapidly, and that was an interesting shift because I don’t really fear anything like the day to day stuff, like, is this going to work? You know, that kind of stuff I don’t fear anymore because I got to see. I guess that’s how I could frame it. It wasn’t something I would ever wish on anyone, but I did get to see that. Like, it can be gone quickly, quickly So that experience changed that fear. But I would say even before then, I guess I’ve been lucky enough to have enough. I think there’s a level of privilege there as well, because, yeah, I never have been in a real position where I was going to be homeless and starving if this didn’t work out. And, you know, I have a degree, I can go back and get another job.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:46:32 You know, I think for me, there’s just peace in the knowing that, you know, even the fact that my grandmother, I was very lucky in that almost all of my grandparents lived well into their 80s and 90s. So I knew a lot of them. I mean, one of my grandmothers, actually, two of them lived until I was in my 40s, and several of my great grandmothers lived until I was in my teens. So I heard firsthand stories of people living in the depression and things like that. And honestly, they were fine. And so, you know, it was hard. There were big challenges there, but I’ve never even had to live close to that level of danger, if you will. And so I think for me, I never had that level of fear because I’ve been privileged enough to. It would be very unlikely that anything I do would land me in that level of desperation. Does that make sense?

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:47:32 Yeah. And being the closer, you know, having had a near-death experience, which I did not know about you, and I’m really glad that you’re doing well.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:47:40 So thank you for sharing. But the closer you are to all of our, you know, inevitable death. And then also if you have a family member that passes, I feel like the wisdom that comes with that is really beautiful and helping. There’s nothing that accelerates knowing what’s important to you in your North Star than something like that, right?

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:47:58 Oh, sure. And I think when we’re building a business, there is a lot of potential fear of like. I think the biggest fear is that I’ll look dumb, if that makes sense. Like that. This won’t work out and I’ll look dumb, right? This is kind of the core of what I hear from my students, and I think if we’re able to feel if that’s something you’re able to transcend by recognizing that there are a couple of people in your life, and I think this might actually be easier for people who are older, because I did not grow up having people look at me all the time. I see this as a different challenge for my kids, because that social media exposure is a level of kind of like that sense that people have to like what they see online, and things like that might be something that’s harder for people that are in their 20s, even 30s now that I just never had to deal with.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:48:58 So I think that’s interesting to consider, but I think what can be helpful is that if there are 2 or 3 people that like, no matter what you do, no matter how dumb it turns out, they’re not going to care. They’re still going to love you. It can be helpful to just connect to that and then recognize that, like if everyone else on the planet thinks you look like a fool doing whatever online or in your business or in your marketing or whatever, as the great Mel Robbins says, let them, who cares?

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:49:32 So this is actually something I really struggled with. So I’m going to digress here, if that’s okay, to this topic. So I really am passionate about bridging the gap from unwanted pain to pleasure. And I talk about sex a lot. So talking about sex and talking about burnout and all of these things are connected. There’s a reason Emily Ratajkowski wrote the book Come as You Are and then the book burnout. If you look at her trajectory. Right. So these things are very very connected.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:49:59 It’s not just about issues in the tissues, but also that gap to pleasure. And when I started to talk about these things on social media, I was terrified. I was terrified of my peers being like, what are you charging? I was terrified of, you know, I have so many degrees. And someone being like, you’re calling yourself an expert? I was literally terrified of saying something wrong, of doing something wrong, of hurting someone’s feelings. All of it. And someone that I adore. Her name’s Kelly Deals. She’s a feminist copywriter and a coach and a lot of these things. She said this to me. She said, Sarah, I’m going to tell the way she described it. But she’s like, Sarah. One day I was sitting, I’m a single mom and I’m like, breastfeeding my children. I haven’t been sleeping and I’m watching some motivational video where they’re telling me just to wake up a little bit earlier to do XYZ. She’s like, I’m literally have multiple babies on my boobs.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:50:54 I cannot wake up earlier. I’m not sleeping Yeah. And so she said to herself, when I am going to write something, I genuinely close my eyes. I don’t think about my mother. I don’t think about my husband. I don’t think about my peers. I think about the woman who is holding multiple babies in the middle of the night that needs to read this letter, and that’s who I write for. I love your example of just thinking of like 1 or 2 people. But for me, I try to think about that person that thinks she’s terrible physical therapist or a terrible coach or terrible MD because she wants to help people with sexual wellness. But all she learned about was issues in the tissues and not this bigger picture, and feels like she’s terrible at her job because of her own divergence and her own multiple interests and all this stuff. And I am writing to her like I am writing to that person, you know? And that little trick has really is genuinely something I use every time I sit at my computer to write an email or a post or anything.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:51:55 Yes I love that. And I think it’s in a way two separate things. So I think who this is for gets you out there, if you will. Like you’re creating that post, you’re writing this video, you’re launching that podcast, you’re writing the book, whatever the thing is, starting the practice, because that is for the actual women who are going to be sitting in front of you, whether it’s in telehealth or in person, that is the only people who matter when it comes to what you’re writing and putting out in the world. But I mean, for the person who’s doing it, a sense of safety. So that person who’s afraid to leap from her job to doing that, the sense of safety can be grounded in just 2 or 3 other people who probably are never going to even read those posts. You know, your husband, your mother has nothing to do with like she doesn’t care what your posts say, but she’s probably not even going to see them, right? My husband doesn’t see 90% of what I post.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:52:52 Why would it show up on his feed? He’s not a woman Right. And so. So the 1 or 2 people, your best friend, you know, even if you end up looking stupid on The Tonight Show, isn’t ever going to love you less. And I think if you yourself is at home with their people who love you, even if you do something dumb or you make a mistake, or you say something that doesn’t resonate with the standard whatever, and then that’s just for your own nervous system grounding, and then you’re exactly right. The effort is for the person that you can see at home double breastfeeding, exhausted, struggling with perimenopause, struggling with infertility. Whatever the struggle is, the work you’re doing is for them.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:53:40 And yeah, you make up such a good point. You know, none of this is possible without a sense of safety and toggling out to that mom who’s breastfeeding and doesn’t have enough social structures and doesn’t feel safe. It’s not her fault You know, there’s micro doses of these things that she can do, but it’s not possible for her right now to start her own business where she takes off for a month.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:54:01 That’s just ridiculous. That’s not safe for anyone. And the privilege that I have in knowing that I have this degree I can go back on. My husband has a very stable job that I knew if things just went to that, like I didn’t have five kids at home that wouldn’t eat. So really grounding into those systemic things that are in place for you is not your fault. Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:54:25 I think real quick, that’s an important part of the burnout conversation, that the tools, the burn tools can be used at any time, even for a woman who’s at home, you know, breastfeeding to a toddler and a newborn. There is still, I think, a need for connection to those micro doses of your own self-care in a way that’s really deep, that the Burn acronym represents. And I think it’s important to recognize for people that are looking to make big changes in your life. There’s a time for it. There’s a place for it. And, you know, we all recognize that you’re working within the systemic structures that make it very difficult for some people to do it at certain time.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:55:11 So there’s also no rush, like you can make micro steps in those directions to you were able to make a big leap, but you had some things in place, you know, same as me. I mean, when I left my clinical jobs and started doing this, I actually had a breastfeeding infant. But I also had in that moment a husband with a stable job, sort of. He was an entrepreneur too, but, you know, still and, you know, as I said, like if you can get clear about what safety means for you, it’s usually a lot less than you think you need. Like, you know, we sold our house. We moved like there were many times where we went way below what I maybe thought I would have needed a couple of years before that.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:55:57 Well, I think that burnout culture and the way that traditionally, outside of this conversation, people talk about burnout is that it places the blame and the responsibility on an individual and especially tells women that they aren’t doing enough, having enough, being enough.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:56:15 And so if you get anything from this conversation by listening to this, I want to end on this quote from Pooja Lakshmi that I love and the concept of burnout. You know, the burnout is a societal betrayal. Burnout places the blame and thus the responsibility on the individual. And it tells women they aren’t resilient enough. They aren’t doing enough, even though it’s directly to many broken structures around them. So I hope that some of these tools, despite those broken structures, help you to have a life that lights you up. One that feels amazing to your soul and one that you’re not blaming yourself for societal betrayal.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:56:58 Yeah, I really appreciate that. Thank you so much for sharing your tools, your personal journey, because I think hearing the inside of that is really what’s helpful for people who are making these kinds of leaps. Like, everyone has fear. This is always hard. You know, you’re not alone. This is how it really is. So thank you for vulnerably sharing that story and enjoy your time with your family.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:57:23 Thanks for being here.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:57:25 Thank you so much and I look forward to connecting with anybody after this podcast. This is such a great opportunity.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:57:31 Yes, and definitely dive into the show notes. We will include all the links that Sarah mentioned and how to get in touch with her, her website, what’s your website and best place to get in touch with you? So if you.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:57:44 Go to w w w dot Better Sex by Sarah without an H. So better sex by Sara. Sara. Com I have this really wonderful newsletter that’s incredibly. I only send one about a month and it’s very useful. I put books like this, I put sexual wellness resources in particular and really useful videos there. So if you register there and you just respond to your first email with the word burn or Jessica Drummond’s podcast, I will hook you up with all the things that I mentioned today, including the books that I mentioned, the workbook about burn that I mentioned, I have a video on that and anything else that you want.

Dr. Sara Sohn 00:58:26 I will make sure you have all those resources. So that’s probably the best way is getting on my email and then just sending me a quick little email with the word burn or Jessica Drummond and I got you. I got your people.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:58:36 All right. Thank you so much Sarah. That’s perfect. Thanks everyone for being here. And I’ll see you next week. Bye. Thank you That was one of the best conversations we’ve had on this podcast. I think it’s really important for people who were doing innovative businesses in the health and wellness space to really support people, to navigate these structural systems that are difficult, that are challenging, that are not designed for the physical or emotional needs of women, for the financial needs of women, in many cases, to show you what goes on in our mindset and our challenges and our fears. So I hope that exploration of the fears of transition, of knowing when you have some yellow flags up around burnout and when you might need to start reconsidering how you’re spending your days.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 00:59:37 And that might not mean quitting your job immediately. It probably won’t, but it may mean boundaries in your time day to day. It may mean creating a little bit of space, those micro doses of space that Sarah talked about where it’s like, okay, I’m turning off work just for today. I’m getting a little connection to nature just for the next five minutes. These little doses of self, true self-care and support nourishment really do make a big difference. So please reach out. Let me know what you thought of this episode. Any new insights you learned for your practice? You can reach out! Just DM me on Instagram at Integrative Women’s Health, or you can email us at support at Integrative Women’s Health institute.com. I just love to hear how you are enjoying these episodes, and who else you would love for me to interview on this podcast and any of the moments you’ve had from these episodes, what other topics you want us to cover? I’d love to hear more of your feedback about the show, so I hope you enjoyed that episode.

Dr. Jessica Drummond 01:00:59 Head over to the show notes. Download all the gifts that Sarah brought for you and I will see you next week on the Integrative Women’s Health podcast. Bye bye. Thank you so much for joining me today for this episode of the Integrative Women’s Health Podcast. Please share this episode with a colleague and if you loved it, hit that subscribe or follow button on your favorite podcast streaming service so that we can do even more to make this podcast better for you and your clients. Let’s innovate and integrate in the world of women’s health.